prince hall oklahoma lodges in the middle east?

Discussion in 'International Freemasonry' started by middle east traveller, May 19, 2015.

  1. middle east traveller

    middle east traveller Registered User

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    I have been traveling all over the middle east for quite some time now , and i have noticed that a majority of lodges from
    dubai , saudi, iraq , qatar , afghanistan all operate under the jurisdiction of the MW prince hall lodge of oklahoma, Im just curious on how this came to be.

    When did these middle east countries become part of oklahoma jurisdiction?

    I know they call all their lodges military lodges, and a majority of them operate a lodge inside a us military base
    which is technically still us soil, which supposedly legitimizes their charter

    but what about the land of shinar lodge in dubai? is it inside a us base? if not does this still make their charter
    valid if they are operating a lodge on foreign soil?

    just looking for further information on these lodges bretheren
     
  2. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    That's the part of the question that I can address. When there is not yet a native jurisdiction in a region/country/state/province then any regular jurisdiction may charter lodges there. Eventually the lodges there will band together and form their own jurisdiction but until that point any regular jurisdiction may charter lodges there. What MWPHGLofOK is doing is colonizing Masonry in the region according to the original tradition. It's a noble project and I applaud them for doing so.

    As to diplomatic status of a specific spot of land, that effects the law and as such determines if a local country is able to ban Masonry at that location. As long as Masonry is not banned in a country being on a military base is not material to the eventual formation of a local jurisdiction.

    The parts of the question I can't answer -

    I am also interested in the history of why Oklahoma in particular chose to be the channel for colonization.

    Another strangeness with Oklahoma is they have recognition within the US but not with UGLE. I don't know if they decided against asking or if their request was forgotten.
     
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  3. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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  4. VW jubelum

    VW jubelum Registered User

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    As long as Masonry is not banned in a country being on a military base is not material to the eventual formation of a local jurisdiction.

    for the information of the less informed bretheren, freemasonry is NOT free and accepted in the aforementioned middle east countries
    the only exception is if the lodge is inside a us base, you will never find a lodge displayed in public view for some reason freemasonry
    is interpreted here as a religion hence it is not permitted by the goverment

    so another question i have is, are prince hall oklahoma masons considered regular or irregular masons?
     
  5. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    MWPHGLofOK is recognized by all US PHA jurisdictions and is thus regular -

    http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/gjlinks.asp Interesting that no web page is listed.

    MWPHGLofOK has been recognized by GLofOK since 2004 and is thus regular -

    http://bessel.org/masrec/phachart.htm

    MWPHGLofOK is not yet recognized by UGLE showing that regularity and recognition are not automatically the same thing -

    http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges See the North America tab.
     
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  6. VW jubelum

    VW jubelum Registered User

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    "MWPHGLofOK is recognized by all US PHA jurisdictions and is thus regular -"

    dont get me wrong brother, its already a known fact that all PHA's recognize each other in the US,is that alone proof of regularity?

    "MWPHGLofOK has been recognized by GLofOK since 2004 and is thus regular -"

    i have been to this site before bessel.org , and was skeptical at first, so if most but not all PHA masons are already recognized
    by their mainstream counterparts and thus are all regular, would it be safe to say that all PHA masons are considered mainstream?

    "MWPHGLofOK is not yet recognized by UGLE showing that regularity and recognition are not automatically the same thing "

    can you elaborate on this bro MWPHGLOK is regular but not recognized?
     
  7. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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    Prince Hall of Oklahoma is recognized by the Grand Lodge of Oklahoma and other Prince Hall Grand Lodges. They simply aren't in amity at this time with United Grand Lodge of England. Such Amity is not required for regularity.

    Another example: many grand lodges are not in Amity with the Grand Lodge of Monaco. However, it is a regular Grand Lodge. Many Grand Lodges are not in amity with Malta. It is also regular

    The Commission on Information on Recognition has previously provided it's opinion that Prince Hall Freemasonry is regular. See http://www.recognitioncommission.org/publish/2006/03/28/2006-commission-report/index.html

    Note, that some grand lodges prohibit members from attending Lodges which which are under Grand Lodges not recognized. Because they are not recognized, they may be considered clandestine. Some grand lodges do not divide the question of regularity and recognition
     
  8. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Notice that there are a ton of jurisdictions that use Prince Hall in their names but that do not have regular origins. It is an important step that there be recognition among the members of this branch of our family because it serves as a filter to easily eliminate clandestine jurisdictions from consideration.

    As to being sufficient proof in an of itself, no. There are clusters of jurisdictions that are not regular but that do recognize each other, like female only Masonic jurisdictions that aren't regular.

    That's why I added extra steps.

    Both branches of our family in the US predate the country so both branches are "mainstream" but the word does not have a useful definition. What matters are regularity (ability for other jurisdictions to recognize) and recognition (ability of members to visit).

    Regular means they follow all of the landmarks, have a valid lineage from the mother jurisdictions, probably some other requirements. They could, and should, be recognized on request. I remember in California MWPHGLofCA+HI was declared regular a few years before there was recognition. It was part of our process.

    Recognized, in addition to requiring regularity, requires either jurisdiction to have acknowledged the other. At it's best recognition is mutual but that's not always the case. At its best recognition is by request but that's not always the case. Recognition happens by vote or delegates at communication and/or by edict.

    Often when a jurisdiction is founded someone goes on a world tour asking for recognition. I remember a brother from Latvia at one GL I attended.

    In the US some jurisdictions issue blanket recognition. The bessel.org web site is no longer maintained so it has a list of jurisdictions that issue blanket recognition as of the point its maintenance stopped. At least MWPHGLofAR now does blanket recognition -

    Since GLofTX and MWPHGLofTX recognize each other, MWPHGLofAR recognizes both by the blanket. Whether GLofTX returns the recognition or not. Because GLofAR does not recognize MWPHGLorAR, GLofTX does not return their recognition. It's not mutual yet. Blanket recognition works that way so it does not have to be mutual. In this case most GLofXX jurisdictions only recognize when the local jurisdictions recognize each other so it's definitely not returned. I don't think it's returned by any GLofXX jurisdiction. I think it was a smart strategy by MWPHGLofAR to issue the invitation.

    Mutual recognition is interesting. California offered mutual recognition to nearly all PHA jurisdictions. I've bugged the Gr Sec about the rest but this year I missed the deadline to submit legislation to force a correction. Only about half of PHA jurisdictions have returned the offer. So far. If California were my only jurisdiction I could present myself to many PHA jurisdictions and it would be up to them to figure out if they can accept me.
     
  9. middle east traveller

    middle east traveller Registered User

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    that is a very very elaborate explanation regarding recognition, regularity and amity relations thank you very much for sharing your knowledge regarding this matter brother.

    going back to the original question about MWPHGLOK lodges here in the middle east, another reason i made this query is because i know a couple of filipino nationals that was raised in iraq a few years back under the MWPHGLOK in military bases, the lodges in iraq are of course gone and the filipinos are back in the philippines, there is no mutual recognition or amity relations between the MWGLP and the MWPHGLOK, so they are currently in a so called lodge of holding (which i dont understand what that is) they are still sending their dues to oklahoma every year.

    I can imagine that it would be very frustrating to be in their situation being raised in a blue lodge and also going through all the appendant bodies in iraq only to come home to their home country and find out that they cannot communicate masonicly with their home country bretheren nor even enter any regular lodge in the philippines and receive the basic rights and benefits of being a mason

    hence now they are they are now questioning the validity of their own jurisdiction

    should they continue to send their dues every year?

    can anyone give any brotherly advise to these disgruntled bretheren?
     
  10. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Argh. Recognition issues. They either have to go through their degrees again (lodges are very generous about proficiencies for these brothers) or "healing" which is learning an extra proficiency or wait for recognition.

    Recognition is slow but it should be possible. Grand Lodge of Philippines works closely with Grand Lodge of California. There are a lot of shared members and much travel between the lodges. GLofCA recognizes MWPHGLofOK. They should be willing to recognize each other if requested. But recognition often takes a couple of years. Worse, because MWPHGLofOK has not requested recognition by United Grand Lodge of England it's not certain to happen. Is it worth 2-3 years for a process that only has an 80-90% chance of happening?

    I suggest they offer to go through their degrees again. It's going to be faster.Send a letter of Demit to their OK lodge the day their degrees are scheduled.
     
  11. middle east traveller

    middle east traveller Registered User

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    believe it or not brother when i told them about the option of taking the degrees of masonry again for the second time, they looked at me like i had a penis growing on my forehead and looked at me with disgust, (pardon my language) , call it pride who wants to take the degrees again right?

    on the other hand if they want it that bad they have to bite the bullet i guess,
     
  12. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Active members do it all the time at practices, but suggest that someone do it on a scheduled degree night and the reaction is totally different. It's weird how that happens.

    Do they want to fix the problem (several years of work and it still might not succeed) or do they want to get over the hurdle? It's noble to solve the problem but I question if it's worth it. Get over the hurdle. Go through the line so you have a vote at GL. Submit legislation to recognize your original jurisdiction. When your proposal gets tot he floor tell the brief version of your tale so the delegates know it is a real issue that actually happened not a theoretical issue that has not happened.

    That's the sale pitch I'd use. Which includes inviting a brother into the line. Funny how that little bit got inserted into the process. ;^)
     
  13. middle east traveller

    middle east traveller Registered User

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    got word from the MWGLP and they are firm on their stand, regarding filipino prince hall masons who want to be
    recognized by the most worshipful grand lodge of the philippines, they have to start from zero , they have to start from the beginning and take the
    degrees of masonry also all their appendant bodies which they received from MWPHGLOK is not recognized, they are S.O.L.
     
  14. Katiponero

    Katiponero Registered User

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    Good day sir, I just have a few question, what happen if this Prince Hall mason create a GL in this said country, for there is no existing GL? Is there any rules regarding the territorial jurisdiction within the counter part GL or mainstream GL? as far as i know 3 lodges can create a GL, correct me if am wrong sir, Good day and God Bless.
     
  15. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    To create a local GL in a region not previously covered by its own GL, it takes 3 or more lodges all from regular and recognized jurisdictions.

    The problem with MWPHGLofOK is they don't seem to have applied to UGLE for recognition. Very many GLs follow the example of UGLE when it comes to recognition so very many GLs do not recognize these OK chartered lodges. I figure nearly everyone will agree that they are regular as they trace their lineage to African 459 and from them to the Premier GL of England. Plus they are recognized by GLofOK and thus many other US lodges. But to be a founding lodge of a new jurisdiction it behooves your parent jurisdiction to petition UGLE for recognition.

    OK PHA brothers - Is there a reason your GL has not yet requested recognition from UGLE? It should be a rubber stamp approval at this point.

    Maybe it's specifically because MWPHGLofOK is so aggressive chartering new lodges - They have less to worry about invader status.
     
  16. VW jubelum

    VW jubelum Registered User

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    OK PHA brothers - Is there a reason your GL has not yet requested recognition from UGLE? It should be a rubber stamp approval at this point.

    Maybe it's specifically because MWPHGLofOK is so aggressive chartering new lodges - They have less to worry about invader status.


    Great question brother, i spoke with a brother from the ugle and yes MWPHGLOK up til now, still has no recognition from the UGLE which is weird considering a majority of prince hall jurisdictions have already been granted recognition . It is not a secret that MWPHGLOK is notorious when comes chartering new lodges in countries where regular freemasonry is not accepted, that is why they have never even tried to seek recognition from the UGLE, for if they do, they know that would definitely be denied recognition

    for if you ask any PHOK mason why they are not recognized by the UGLE , they cant answer you, all they can tell you is that they are regular masons

    because of certain questionable practices they have been accustomed to,
    1. they aggressively charter new lodges everywhere in the world with no regard for jurisdiction issues
    2. their current grandmaster has been in office for more than 20 years,? need i say more
    3. active recruitment when a lodge is opened

    long story short i would never recommend anyone to take the degrees of masonry with them
    just my honest opinion bretheren
     
  17. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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    where do you get this information? Are you a PGM? You don't sit on CIOR for CGMNA. You don't appear to be a UGLE mason.
     
  18. Katiponero

    Katiponero Registered User

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    Then the answer is yes? they can create a GL in this said country (middle east) for their no existing GL, right? because this PHAOK is a regular and recognized jurisdiction in the world, maybe there an exemption if the MM who travel don't know that kind of story or we can say less inform mason?

    May be sir they are waiting for the right wave regarding this issue, success don't need much time for less the informed, right?
     
  19. Katiponero

    Katiponero Registered User

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    Sir don't be rude,you are questioning the right of your brother, you are mason right? temperance sir =)
    base on what I read MWPHGOK is just doing what is right, they making a lodge inside the US base and there is no existing GL, so what's the problem?more specially in middle east, if this other mainstream lodge can do that let it be.

    May be sir wait until this all Prince Hall mason create a GL for them to work in a better working knowledge.

    1. If this is happened, no mainstream GL in US can accept this so called PHA mason if they aggressively charter without the consent of there counter part
    lodge or GL, I meet same of PHA mason and there are so professional regarding there words, I think the main issue for this is racism, better know the history sir.

    2. No mason can give there trust to the unworthy, right? even Grand Master have a hidden darkness, what do you think sir?

    3. I think there's a phrase, 2B1ask1, there is no recruitment in masonry, em I right sir?

    An individual opinion cannot speak as a whole, let your honest opinion be on your side and let them study and experience this
    knowledge of light truth masonry, need further light sir? =)
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  20. Katiponero

    Katiponero Registered User

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    May be sir an honest individual who want to share his opinion regarding Prince Hall mason.
     

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