prince hall oklahoma lodges in the middle east?

Discussion in 'International Freemasonry' started by middle east traveller, May 19, 2015.

  1. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    It looks like you are asking that question hoping there is a clear binary/integer yes/no answer. As suggested in the rest of the thread it's not completely clear cut. The answer is very much a floating point number in between yes and no.

    MWPHGLofOK is regular in origin and nearly all of their practices, but they are a bit too aggressive in chartering lodges in places where Masonry is banned. The traditions allow chartering lodges in places where no Grand Lodge holds authority, but the traditions on chartering lodges where Masonry is banned are much more vague. OK PHA are just a little bit rogue. Just rogue enough that someone aggressive about Masonry like myself rather likes their practices. Just rogue enough that someone more conservative about Masonry like the brothers who give advice on recognition might not like their practices.

    For a group of lodges in a region to form their own Grand Lodge that will get recognized worldwide, those lodges have to be from jurisdictions that are BOTH regular AND recognized. MWPHGLofOK is definitely regular. But recognition of MWPHGLofOK is far from worldwide. They have asked for and been granted recognition by many (most?) US GLs. They have not asked for recognition from the Untied Grad Lodge of England UGLE. Most GLs in the world follow the lead of UGLE for most recognition matters. Not all, but most. In general once UGLE recognizes so will almost everyone else.

    I asked MWPHGLofOK brothers why they chose to not ask UGLE for recognition. I did not expect a formally authoritative answer. Sure enough the answer that was given was un-official and not authoritative. It was much as I expected - Thanks!

    There is even more floating point between the yes and the no if lodges do want to form their own GL. The lodges chartered by OK PHA can turn in their charters and switch to a jurisdiction that is widely recognized, and then participate in forming a new GL. The lodges charted by OK PHA can wait while other recognized jurisdictions have enough lodges to form a GL and then the OK PHA lodges can switch. Either way it's more complex but it works.
     
  2. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Untied Grad Lodge - Dyslexics of the whorled untie!
     
  3. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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    Really, no one knows why the Phillipines made the decision. This is really gross speculation.

    May I provide another general view from one who handles fraternal recognitions matters?

    Recognition by UGLE is of no moment in the decision making as to the regularity pf PHA masons. I have never heard voiced from CGMNA or the Home GLs that PHAOK is too aggressive. I have seen US GLs recognise GLs not in amity with UGLE.
     
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  4. Brother H

    Brother H Registered User

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    Brethren,

    MWPHGL of Oklahoma is not recognised by UGLE as you have said, but not even by some big mainstream Grand Lodges in USA.

    Just had this question/discussion with a Master Mason belonging to QML#210, working under the Jurisdiction of the above mentuon GL, District 15.
    Fraternally,
     
  5. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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    Again, recognition by UGLE is not determinative. PHA GLs are considered regular and PHA OK is in amity with its State GL counterpart.
     
  6. Keith D. McKeever Jr.

    Keith D. McKeever Jr. Premium Member

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    This is great information!! I am from District #1 of MWPHGLofSC and I just recently got out here to Bagram, Afghanistan and I was looking to travel to other houses with-in the MWPHGLofOK, but wanted to make sure that I am able to so. I was talking to my Manager who is also out of MWPHGLofOK and said everything is good and I should have no problems being conferred.
     
  7. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    See this link http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/gjlinks.asp for a list of PHA jurisdictions that all recognize each other. MWPHGLofOK and MWPHGLofSC are both on the list. You should be good to pass the tiler and attend members only meetings.
     
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  8. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    Hi Glen

    I note
    My first thought was that sounds like sour grapes but thanks for the link. I checked it. "Further, the charter was issued in the name of several Masons who are under formal suspension from the GLofNY. According to the GLofNY, both actions run afoul of rules of the Conference of Grand Masters of North America, and of generally recognized Masonic jurisprudence."

    Chartering a lodge with a petition for a warrant carrying names of suspended members ... then having recognition pulled sounds fair and correct. Seems a last resort though..

    However I am wondering about "both actions run afoul" - does this means now that it is "first in best dressed" in relation to new lodges in an area where there is no GL ? It GL's have sovereignty (they do) then why would they need to check if another GL has lodges in an area where there is no GL ? Just interested. I understand that these days of modern communication is not the same as in the past where it could take months to get a warrant, and thinking has obviously changed sine the 1800's. I guess I am interested in the Evolution of that from your perspective..
     
  9. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    Not so here. It differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction regardless of regularity.
     
  10. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

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    We do understand, that we are MASONS, even if we don't / can't visit RIGHT!!!
     
  11. Keith D. McKeever Jr.

    Keith D. McKeever Jr. Premium Member

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    I greatly appreciate it Brother!!
     
  12. acjohnson53

    acjohnson53 Registered User

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    Them Oklahoma Masons are putting in Work, I was raised an Oklahoma Mason while stationed in Germany in the early 90's...Other Jurisdiction's have a strong presence outside the United States, Maryland, Georgia etc..
     
  13. acjohnson53

    acjohnson53 Registered User

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    Reading some of those passed were deep. in a nut shell what he said...SMH..Couldn't explain it any better...
     
  14. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    What do you mean by strong presence ? Is the MWPHGL of GA operating outside the US ? And you were raised in a PHA Oklahoma lodge in Germany, did you have to demit once you got back to the states or did you hail from Oklahoma originally ?
     
  15. acjohnson53

    acjohnson53 Registered User

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    I demitted when I came back to the States. I now reside in California.. There is nothing wrong with demitting to another jurisdiction, because when you just visit you have know rights. All you are doing is keeping up on your Masonry skills. Once you demit you allow yourself to vote, and have a voice in the Lodge..As a dues card carrying member....Trust me I love the jurisdiction I hailed from, but change is good...
     
  16. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    I know there are some jurisdictions that only aloow you to be amember of one lodge or one jurisdiction. I have been lucky enough that my home jurisdiction and the one that i moved to allow plural/dual memberships. Check with your Secretary of the jurisdiction you are leaving and the one you are going to and see if they allow it, if not then you have to make a choice....demit and join the new lodge or keep membership in your mother jurisdiction and just be an active visitor in your new jurisdiction.
     
  17. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    I don't know of any PH GL that allows plural membership.
     
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  18. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    We (UGLV) allow plural membership - of any lodge under any regular jurisdiction..
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  19. acjohnson53

    acjohnson53 Registered User

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    That''s one thing i know in Prince Hall Masonry you can't be a member in two different Jurisdictions at the same time...That is the purpose of the demit
     
  20. Mindovermatter Ace

    Mindovermatter Ace Registered User

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    That's not true. There are some Prince Hall jurisdictions that allow dual membership. Many PHA jurisdictions don't.
     

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