My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

racism question

Rifleman1776

Registered User
I think it is important to discuss racism that is in the craft. People don't want to talk about it but it is a serious problem in some areas.

This thread has certainly drifted. I have no personal experience with PH Masonry. But, living in a southern state, I am well aware that considerable bigotry still exists. Unlikely that a black would be voted into most regular Lodges in this state as it requires only one black ball to reject and there is bound to be, at least, one bigot at most meetings. If I see a black wearing a Masonic ring or lapel pin it is with nearly 100% certainty he belongs to a PH Lodge. Arkansas GL Masonry is in such a mess currently, I do not even know if PH is recognized. (I belong to Lodge in Missouri just because of that "mess"). But, I do have occasional contact with black Masons. I get my health care at the VA hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas. Not unusual for a black veteran to approach me, stick out his hand and say "Hi Brother". He/they are Brothers, no doubt. As far as I am personally concerned, PH Brothers are recognized.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
This thread has certainly drifted. I have no personal experience with PH Masonry. But, living in a southern state, I am well aware that considerable bigotry still exists. Unlikely that a black would be voted into most regular Lodges in this state as it requires only one black ball to reject and there is bound to be, at least, one bigot at most meetings. If I see a black wearing a Masonic ring or lapel pin it is with nearly 100% certainty he belongs to a PH Lodge. Arkansas GL Masonry is in such a mess currently, I do not even know if PH is recognized. (I belong to Lodge in Missouri just because of that "mess"). But, I do have occasional contact with black Masons. I get my health care at the VA hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas. Not unusual for a black veteran to approach me, stick out his hand and say "Hi Brother". He/they are Brothers, no doubt. As far as I am personally concerned, PH Brothers are recognized.
AR does not recognise PHA.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
AR does not recognise PHA.

Is it worth pulling recognition of GLofAR over their obstinacy? Most think it's not; that local sovereignty beats support of appendent bodies. But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory. The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over. Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.

No jurisdiction is going to do this, but think about it. Screw up badly enough internally and you may well be required to solve more than one problem.

AR isn't the only jurisdiction with a huge problem. GLofTN brought politics or religion into lodge enough that GLofCA pulled recognition. Last I heard that's still the situation. I suggested to my mother lodge that they suggest the strategy I mention here, but they didn't get it. "We already recognize Prince Hall" was the response. Not being physically present I wasn't able to explain enough of the moving parts.

Several years ago GLofFL faced having their recognition pulled over bringing religion into tiled lodge spaces. They avoided that by voting down approval of the outgoing GM's edict as he was replaced the next year. Now they are moving towards recognition. Good for Florida for learning the hard way and correcting on their own.
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
Is it worth pulling recognition of GLofAR over their obstinacy? Most think it's not; that local sovereignty beats support of appendent bodies. But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory. The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over. Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.

No jurisdiction is going to do this, but think about it. Screw up badly enough internally and you may well be required to solve more than one problem.

AR isn't the only jurisdiction with a huge problem. GLofTN brought politics or religion into lodge enough that GLofCA pulled recognition. Last I heard that's still the situation. I suggested to my mother lodge that they suggest the strategy I mention here, but they didn't get it. "We already recognize Prince Hall" was the response. Not being physically present I wasn't able to explain enough of the moving parts.

Several years ago GLofFL faced having their recognition pulled over bringing religion into tiled lodge spaces. They avoided that by voting down approval of the outgoing GM's edict as he was replaced the next year. Now they are moving towards recognition. Good for Florida for learning the hard way and correcting on their own.

Oklahoma pulled recognition and then relented. Kansas did so a few months ago although I wasn't sure why.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Is it worth pulling recognition of GLofAR over their obstinacy? Most think it's not; that local sovereignty beats support of appendent bodies. But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory. The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over. Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.

No jurisdiction is going to do this, but think about it. Screw up badly enough internally and you may well be required to solve more than one problem.

AR isn't the only jurisdiction with a huge problem. GLofTN brought politics or religion into lodge enough that GLofCA pulled recognition. Last I heard that's still the situation. I suggested to my mother lodge that they suggest the strategy I mention here, but they didn't get it. "We already recognize Prince Hall" was the response. Not being physically present I wasn't able to explain enough of the moving parts.

Several years ago GLofFL faced having their recognition pulled over bringing religion into tiled lodge spaces. They avoided that by voting down approval of the outgoing GM's edict as he was replaced the next year. Now they are moving towards recognition. Good for Florida for learning the hard way and correcting on their own.
Over the failure to recognise PHA, I don’t see that as a likely basis to withdraw recognition. I think it more likely they will lose recognition over the allegations they will refuse to issue a demit for AR Masons to join GLs which do recognise their PHA counterpart or to allow Arkansas members to sit in grand Lodges who recognise there PHA counterparts . Remember that it takes some time between an incident and the next annual communication for action to be taken.
 

Rifleman1776

Registered User
Is it worth pulling recognition of GLofAR over their obstinacy? Most think it's not; that local sovereignty beats support of appendent bodies. But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory. The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over. Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.

No jurisdiction is going to do this, but think about it. Screw up badly enough internally and you may well be required to solve more than one problem.

AR isn't the only jurisdiction with a huge problem. GLofTN brought politics or religion into lodge enough that GLofCA pulled recognition. Last I heard that's still the situation. I suggested to my mother lodge that they suggest the strategy I mention here, but they didn't get it. "We already recognize Prince Hall" was the response. Not being physically present I wasn't able to explain enough of the moving parts.

Several years ago GLofFL faced having their recognition pulled over bringing religion into tiled lodge spaces. They avoided that by voting down approval of the outgoing GM's edict as he was replaced the next year. Now they are moving towards recognition. Good for Florida for learning the hard way and correcting on their own.
Br.
I agree. But situation in Arkansas likely to change. There is a certain mindset among those in power about doing things a certain way that often has nothing to do with the teachings of Masonry. There is a little light however. I understand the current GWM is trying to make changes that will remedy the situation. Hope so. Currently, I am told I would not be allowed to sit in the Arkansas Lodge where I was raised because I am a Shriner. Sad. I would have left Masonry completely but I still believe in what Masonry is SUPPOSED to be and my Missouri Lodge is what it should be.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Br.
I agree. But situation in Arkansas likely to change. There is a certain mindset among those in power about doing things a certain way that often has nothing to do with the teachings of Masonry. There is a little light however. I understand the current GWM is trying to make changes that will remedy the situation. Hope so. Currently, I am told I would not be allowed to sit in the Arkansas Lodge where I was raised because I am a Shriner. Sad. I would have left Masonry completely but I still believe in what Masonry is SUPPOSED to be and my Missouri Lodge is what it should be.
Not arguing you were told that, but my understanding is that the prohibition only runs to AR Masons. If you see something official, it would be good to know.
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory. The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over. Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.
Wow! Certainly a point to ponder.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Over the failure to recognise PHA, I don’t see that as a likely basis to withdraw recognition. I think it more likely they will lose recognition over the allegations they will refuse to issue a demit for AR Masons to join GLs which do recognise their PHA counterpart or to allow Arkansas members to sit in grand Lodges who recognise there PHA counterparts . Remember that it takes some time between an incident and the next annual communication for action to be taken.

Right. The examples I used where only about screwing up in other ways and using that as external pressure to solve their own problems.

In AR it's not its dealing with the Shrine. It's violating the landmarks over granting demits in a way that violates the sovereignty of their neighbors. Masonry can not become a tyranny because Brothers can always demit. GLofAR is definitely violating that. It doesn't matter in the least that they are moving towards solution. Other jurisdictions should not permit them to ban demits to other jurisdictions.

In TN it's violating the landmarks about bringing religion and politics into tiled spaces by adopting a rule from one specific religion and one specific political party.

In FL it was going to be about establishing specific allowed and disallowed religions, but then they cleaned up their own house and are now becoming an example of how to clean up their entire house without needing extreme treatment by outsiders.

I know that pulling recognition over failure to recognize PHA is not currently going to happen. But several jurisdictions did pull recognition over granting PHA recognition and they were laughed down by the rest of American Masonry. At some point we can and should run that laugh down to completion.

Still, I do suggest that it's time to resolve double screw up issues like my list above. Show American jurisdictions that if they screw up badly enough they will be expected to resolve all of their problems not just the screw up du jour.
 

Rifleman1776

Registered User
Bro. Doug, heartily agree. My earlier post I meant to say "not likely to change". The demit situation in Arkansas is so egregious a Brother from another state Lodge but living in Arkansas has not been able to get required demits and letters of good standing to allow petitioning our Missouri Lodge for membership. He has become a sort of non-person as far as Arkansas Masonry is concerned. (and I'm tempted to not capitalize 'Masonry' when used in connection with Arkansas)
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
The demit situation in Arkansas is so egregious a Brother from another state Lodge but living in Arkansas has not been able to get required demits and letters of good standing to allow petitioning our Missouri Lodge for membership. He has become a sort of non-person as far as Arkansas Masonry is concerned. (and I'm tempted to not capitalize 'Masonry' when used in connection with Arkansas)
The more I read about the situation in Arkansas the more I am amazed. I had no idea that the situation these was so bad!
 
Last edited:

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Bro. Doug, heartily agree. My earlier post I meant to say "not likely to change". The demit situation in Arkansas is so egregious a Brother from another state Lodge but living in Arkansas has not been able to get required demits and letters of good standing to allow petitioning our Missouri Lodge for membership. He has become a sort of non-person as far as Arkansas Masonry is concerned. (and I'm tempted to not capitalize 'Masonry' when used in connection with Arkansas)
Indeed. Luckily, Utah does not require a dimit to petition for affiliation, only proof of good standing, such as a dues card.
 

Rifleman1776

Registered User
Yes. It is that bad. That is why I believe it would be best to have a central authority, like American Grand Lodge. Then they could step in and kick some butt. Sadly, that is not the case.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Yes. It is that bad. That is why I believe it would be best to have a central authority, like American Grand Lodge. Then they could step in and kick some butt. Sadly, that is not the case.
Which is the same reason I resist a national Grand Lodge, because we can have bad policies imposed nation wide and the individual mason will have little input.

Further, other GLs can already kick butt. They each have the power to suspend recognition. If they don’t impose that power now, I see no reason they would do so as a group. Additionally, a GL can be removed from the CGMNA. The CGMNA can censure the grand lodge.
 
Top