Shots Fired!

[dfreybur]

Let me put it this way: I wanted to know if the bias is that a white Grand Master that is Christian and he makes an unpopular decision would be assumed that his religion played a part in it. Or do minorities get the benefit of the doubt when they make decisions that religion didn't play a part.

No double standards from me. If someone's a racist I don't care what race he is. I've seen racism in multiple directions. Same comment on religious bigotry from me. I'm seen religious bigotry directed at my religion by outsiders and at outsiders by members of my religion. None get a pass from me.

Both GA and TN brought religious law from one specific sect into lodge. It is irrelevant to me which branch of our family they are in. If other GLs have the same ban, that's on them. They have remained quiet about it.

I have in the past noted that I am powerless in the face of the ballot box. If individuals are voting based on either type of bigotry I can't know. I could switch lodges but so far the Brothers in my own lodges have lived up to our standards. I can't know if they found it easy to confer degrees upon a brother of a different color or on an alternate VSL but there we were together at those degrees.

This has become about jurisdiction law so it has moved to another level.

Religious freedom has always been my primary hot button in Masonry. I live in a country with freedom of religion and that's thanks to our Masonic for bearers. There are countries in the world where I can be killed without consequence just for admitting what religion I am a member of. I did not petition until I became certain the order lives up to its high standards on religious tolerance. My mother jurisdiction California has long lived up to the high standards on the topic. Most of the time Brothers everywhere live up to the high standards. I've attended alternate VSL degrees in more than one jurisdiction now. When the Florida GM went religious bigot 3 years ago the delegates in Florida proved him an aberration and lived up to the high standards. When Mississippi delegates recently voted against theocracy they lived up to the high standards. The GMs in CA, DC and BE have taken a stance to live up to the high standards. Examples, my Brothers, worthy of all emulation. Examples, my Brothers, in the majority among us thanks to that spark of the divine within each of us.

During the Florida incident I was circulating legislation in the 2 jurisdictions where I am a PM able to do so to pull recognition should that edict have been upheld, and the Florida delegates proved their principles so that paperwork became unnecessary. Now one of my 3 MW GMs has beat me to the legislation.

PHA recognition has always been my secondary hot button in Masonry. When I petitioned my mother lodge two PHA friends signed as character witnesses (California petions have lines for character witnesses) for me before I even knew who Prince Hall was. Now the two issues have collided and this year I have submitted legislation in CA to recognize MWPHGLofGA and MWPHGLofTN in place of GLofGA and GLofTN. Unlikely to pass but I'm trying. It would solve two issues with one move because GLofGA and GLofTN would have to get past both issues.

The clock of GL Masonry ticks once per year, out of sequence jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Now's the time to leverage one issue to handle both. One step at a time in a process that will take many steps.

 

[Dontrell Stroman]

No double standards from me. If someone's a racist I don't care what race he is. I've seen racism in multiple directions. Same comment on religious bigotry from me. I'm seen religious bigotry directed at my religion by outsiders and at outsiders by members of my religion. None get a pass from me.

Both GA and TN brought religious law from one specific sect into lodge. It is irrelevant to me which branch of our family they are in. If other GLs have the same ban, that's on them. They have remained quiet about it.

I have in the past noted that I am powerless in the face of the ballot box. If individuals are voting based on either type of bigotry I can't know. I could switch lodges but so far the Brothers in my own lodges have lived up to our standards. I can't know if they found it easy to confer degrees upon a brother of a different color or on an alternate VSL but there we were together at those degrees.

This has become about jurisdiction law so it has moved to another level.

Religious freedom has always been my primary hot button in Masonry. I live in a country with freedom of religion and that's thanks to our Masonic for bearers. There are countries in the world where I can be killed without consequence just for admitting what religion I am a member of. I did not petition until I became certain the order lives up to its high standards on religious tolerance. My mother jurisdiction California has long lived up to the high standards on the topic. Most of the time Brothers everywhere live up to the high standards. I've attended alternate VSL degrees in more than one jurisdiction now. When the Florida GM went religious bigot 3 years ago the delegates in Florida proved him an aberration and lived up to the high standards. When Mississippi delegates recently voted against theocracy they lived up to the high standards. The GMs in CA, DC and BE have taken a stance to live up to the high standards. Examples, my Brothers, worthy of all emulation. Examples, my Brothers, in the majority among us thanks to that spark of the divine within each of us.

During the Florida incident I was circulating legislation in the 2 jurisdictions where I am a PM able to do so to pull recognition should that edict have been upheld, and the Florida delegates proved their principles so that paperwork became unnecessary. Now one of my 3 MW GMs has beat me to the legislation.

PHA recognition has always been my secondary hot button in Masonry. When I petitioned my mother lodge two PHA friends signed as character witnesses (California petions have lines for character witnesses) for me before I even knew who Prince Hall was. Now the two issues have collided and this year I have submitted legislation in CA to recognize MWPHGLofGA and MWPHGLofTN in place of GLofGA and GLofTN. Unlikely to pass but I'm trying. It would solve two issues with one move because GLofGA and GLofTN would have to get past both issues.

The clock of GL Masonry ticks once per year, out of sequence jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Now's the time to leverage one issue to handle both. One step at a time in a process that will take many steps.

Why don't you think it would pass ?

 

[The Traveling Man]

PHA recognition has always been my secondary hot button in Masonry. When I petitioned my mother lodge two PHA friends signed as character witnesses (California petions have lines for character witnesses) for me before I even knew who Prince Hall was. Now the two issues have collided and this year I have submitted legislation in CA to recognize MWPHGLofGA and MWPHGLofTN in place of GLofGA and GLofTN. Unlikely to pass but I'm trying. It would solve two issues with one move because GLofGA and GLofTN would have to get past both issues.

The clock of GL Masonry ticks once per year, out of sequence jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Now's the time to leverage one issue to handle both. One step at a time in a process that will take many steps.

I think they should recognize PHA in TN and GA for a few reasons:

1.) If CA recognized those PHA Lodges it may lead to the other GL's doing the same.

2.) It will show that they did not share the same views as those GL's, with regards to their regularity.

3.) It will put GA and TN in a tough situation when it comes time for them to ask for recognition.

One question I have tho. If the other GL's pull recognition, will that allow for Lodges in those Jurisdictions to withdraw and form a new GL, and then apply for recognition??

 

[dfreybur]

Why don't you think it would pass ?

A bridge too far. So far not all other US GLs have pulled recognition from TN and GA. Some have come out as neutral. If CA recognizes PHA in TN and GA some number of other GLs who still recognize TN and GA will see it as a breach of sovereignty.

What I want is to require TN and GA to clean up their act on both topics before coming back into the fold. What I do not want is for other GLs who already recognize PHA locally to pull recognition for CA over a sovereignty battle.

 

[dfreybur]

One question I have tho. If the other GL's pull recognition, will that allow for Lodges in those Jurisdictions to withdraw and form a new GL, and then apply for recognition??

Even GLs that don't recognize PHA understand that PHA is regular. Even GLs that don't officially admit to that understand it.

In TN and GA any lodge that wanted to go back to regularity by changing affiliation faces a choice - Switch to PHA solve also solve their racism issue, or go independent and hope some GL is going to ignore the racism implied by the act and recognize anyways.

Recognizing a set of rebel lodges means you'd never be able to recognize the GL that triggered the issue. TN and/or GA could vote next year to return to regularity but it would be too late. That means recognizing a set of rebel lodges is too extreme a move for any GL to make.

No. They have to 1) work within their system by pushing to return to regularity, 2) exit their system by switching to PHA, but not 3) rebel and form a new GL.

 

[Warrior1256]

What I want is to require TN and GA to clean up their act on both topics before coming back into the fold. What I do not want is for other GLs who already recognize PHA locally to pull recognition for CA over a sovereignty battle.

I agree except that I think pulling recognition from a GL because we disagree with something that we disagree with is not the answer.

That means recognizing a set of rebel lodges is too extreme a move for any GL to make.

I agree! If this sort of thing got started where would it end?

 

[dfreybur]

If this sort of thing got started where would it end?

I think the answer both short and long term is on my SR ring "Ordo Ab Chao". In the short run there would be Chaos. Eventually there would be Order.

I'd rather achieve order by evolution than by revolution. Neither occurs without pushing. So I have begun to push with GL legislation attempts ...

 

[dfreybur]

Sigh.

Wouldn't it be nice if "Shots Fired!" referred to jurisdictions dropping anti-drink regulations and encouraging Table Lodge complete with those special glasses that are whacked on the table after each toast!

But that's a topic for future legislation ... ;^)

 

[The Traveling Man]

Dfreybur, if Lodges withdrew from those Jurisductions and formed a bew GL you would view them as rebels, instead of Lodges doing the right thing? It may mean that the original GL couldn't be recognized, but whose fault would that be? And if the original GL decided to make things right, they would simply merge, as GL's have done before. How long do we give a GL to "get their minds right"?. We aren't still waiting for the GOdF to change their ways. We instead recognized the GLNF, whose lineage comes from the Orient.

In any event it'll definitely be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[dfreybur]

Dfreybur, if Lodges withdrew from those Jurisductions and formed a bew GL you would view them as rebels, instead of Lodges doing the right thing?

Why "instead"? They can be both rebels and doing the right thing. BUT ... In this case there are TWO problems to be solved and switched obedience to the local PHA GL solves both. Breaking with their own GL shows good faith on one of their two problems but failing to switch to PHA shows bad faith on the other of their two problems.

It may mean that the original GL couldn't be recognized, but whose fault would that be?

Yep. The group who broke regularity by bringing theocratic rule is at fault. But that isn't the only problem in play.

And if the original GL decided to make things right, they would simply merge, as GL's have done before.

If that happened I would not mind, but it still fails to address one of their two problems.

How long do we give a GL to "get their minds right"?. We aren't still waiting for the GOdF to change their ways. We instead recognized the GLNF, whose lineage comes from the Orient

After GNLF went nuts enough that UGLE pulled recognition I attended Illinois GL. Our delegates decided to be patient with GNLF more time to resolve their own problems. It took them about two years. Right now some GLs have declared neutrality on this current topic in a similar move.

In any event it'll definitely be interesting to see how this plays out.

I picture Leonard Nimoy playing the part of Spock - "Fascinating."

 

[MRichard]

I agree except that I think pulling recognition from a GL because we disagree with something that we disagree with is not the answer.

This is more than a disagreement. This is clear cut discrimination. The provision in TN also makes it a offense to fornicate or engage in adultery. Is that going to be enforced as well?

 

[Bloke]

Wouldn't it be nice if "Shots Fired!" referred to jurisdictions dropping anti-drink regulations and encouraging Table Lodge complete with those special glasses that are whacked on the table after each toast!

But that's a topic for future legislation ... ;^)

Maybe if the guys at Tenn drank a bit more they would not be as uptight

 

[Warrior1256]

I'd rather achieve order by evolution than by revolution. Neither occurs without pushing. So I have begun to push with GL legislation attempts ...

Wouldn't it be nice if "Shots Fired!" referred to jurisdictions dropping anti-drink regulations and encouraging Table Lodge complete with those special glasses that are whacked on the table after each toast!

Yes, it would!

 

[Warrior1256]

Maybe if the guys at Tenn drank a bit more they would not be as uptight

Lol....true.

 

[acjohnson53]

MWPHGLCA

 

[Brother JC]

Sigh.

Wouldn't it be nice if "Shots Fired!" referred to jurisdictions dropping anti-drink regulations and encouraging Table Lodge complete with those special glasses that are whacked on the table after each toast!

But that's a topic for future legislation ... ;^)

Next time you're out west, Doug, come to Santa Cruz. Our lodge has it's own set of cannons brought over from Scotland. Part of the Agape table setting.

 

[Ripcord22A]

engage in adultery. Is that going to be enforced as well?

I hope that that part is.

 

[dfreybur]

Next time you're out west, Doug, come to Santa Cruz. Our lodge has it's own set of cannons brought over from Scotland. Part of the Agape table setting.

My first cannon glass is from a Table Lodge at Glendale Lodge GLofCA. Vivat!

 

[Brother JC]

Nice. Ours are a permanent fixture, unfortunately. It would be nice if we had enough to give as gifts.

 

[Ronny D Powell]

How many jurisdictions use the word "eunuch" in their obligations? Have you ever thought you were being unjust to some who swore to uphold their obligations before God? Remember, none of us got to write our obligations. Remember some obligations have not changed significantly in generations. Also, remember to change a ritual is just not a one day affair and it is seldom done without much discussion. So, why suspend dialog with a jurisdiction or fellow human being just based on a disagreement. A disagreement I might add that has been on going for centuries. Also, explain where the lesson of tolerance has gone during all this political correctness that should not be in a lodge or grand lodge at all? May the G.A.O.T.U. watch over all.